Rachel Maddow vs. Susan Rice on Afghanistan

Twitter was all abuzz last night about this respectful sparring match between Rachel Maddow and Susan Rice.  Yes, it was just as good as everyone was saying. Too bad we don’t see more like this on cable news.

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PART TWO:

RELATED: This post by Digby is definitely worth a read. [hat tip Mithras]

Posted by Kevin K. on 12/03/09 at 09:54 AM • Permalink

Categories: PoliticsBarack ObamaWar In ErrorTelevisionYouTubidity

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Good for Digby. I started reading that Hayden nonsense yesterday but couldn’t stomach it.

I too would rather see us de-escalating in Afghanistan. But these progressives who feel so “betrayed!” are whiny children. We’ve never elected a full-stop liberal in this country to the highest office. Doesn’t mean that it can’t happen—but it will certainly never happen if progressives don’t start understanding that it’s a game of inches occasionally interrupted by big sweeping changes that then tend to slip back toward the center and back into the game of inches.

Good thing Tom Hayden isn’t a black dude, or he would never have had the strength to endure Reconstruction and the long hard murderous slog toward civil rights.

Besides, forgive me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Hayden part of the “Dump the Hump” crowd that helped bring us the glorious Nixon years? Yeah.

I saw that Maddow piece last night, and it was fantastic, though I don’t suppose she’ll get much credit from the usual suspects. As for Hayden, I may highlight a piece of silliness I found particularly compelling shortly.

That’s why I like Maddow, though the introduction left me a bit unimpressed.  I mean, who would imagine that a flow chart of counterinsurgency and nation building in a war that’s lasted 8 years with more than 100K troops would be complicated?  That bit of cable theatre was a bit beneath someone whose greatest strength is addressing complicated issues in an honest way.

Also, why does she have to keep repeating that she’s a Rhodes Scholar? I can see why Somerby finds that grating! She mentioned it like 12 times! Or not.

As for Hayden, I may highlight a piece of silliness I found particularly compelling shortly.

Looking forward to it.  I saw a great Tweet about Hayden:

If you’re stripping the Obama sticker off your car because of escalation, you should have never put that joint on

I mean, who would imagine that a flow chart of counterinsurgency and nation building in a war that’s lasted 8 years with more than 100K troops would be complicated?  That bit of cable theatre was a bit beneath someone whose greatest strength is addressing complicated issues in an honest way.

Yes, that flat-out sucked. Wasn’t much different than what the Repubs in Congress did with the health care chart.

Wasn’t much different than what the Repubs in Congress did with the health care chart.

Indeed.  Of the same school of thought that says the healthcare bill is bad because it’s longer than a Nancy Drew book.

In perspective, though, Chris Matthews has had 2hours of cable news a night for as long as I can remember, and I’ve never seen him address an issue with as much thought as this.

Granted, his show is “Hardball” and explicitely about politics, not policy. However, I’ve long thought that when policy and politics are divorced, the public is shafted.

But what we haven’t heard, after 8 years of occupying Afghanistan is why. When I sat down with my Congressman and brought the subject up his only answer was it’s key to our national security. No explanation of what threat exists, how we are dealing with that threat and when we will know the threat has been mitigated or eliminated.

Obama has offered nothing in explanation as to why tens of thousands of combat troops are fighting in Afghanistan, just palaver like “the good war” and “it’s vital to our national security.” I just wish someone could articulate the danger in anything other than generalities.

The interview with Susan Rice was excellent.  She made it so easy to understand that the Taliban Al Quaeda are bffs.

Oblomova said:

Good thing Tom Hayden isn’t a black dude, or he would never have had the strength to endure Reconstruction and the long hard murderous slog toward civil rights.

Which is not only an embarrassingly silly, ill-conceived comment (uh, wasn’t that a period of over a century, and like, not this century?) it disregards the fact that those who fought for civil rights over that long period were, in their time, considered reckless, over-zealous TROUBLEMAKERS who were threatening not only the blissful standard of segregation and white supremacy, but the (ghasp!) unity of the Democratic Party. And this, whether we consider them “progressives” or “radical left,” or not (many advocates of civil rights, you know, really were those bad old lefties that you clever rumproasters enjoy sneering at.)
Indeed, even today, the DLC pitches a bogus goal of “getting back the South” by turning corporatist right, and pretends that the disaffection with the Democratic Party there came about because of “McGovernism” (i.e., excessive, morally-relative left-liberalism)—when the truth is, southern segregationist Democrats followed Strom Thurmond out the door in droves over civil rights legislation starting in 1965, the Republicans exploited that trend with their race-baiting ‘southern strategy,’ and the formerly ‘solid South’ was GONE by the time McGovern came along.

Politicians can be complicated folks. LBJ and Humphrey are some strong examples of that. Both are justly regarded as heroes of the civil rights movement, but their legacies are darkened considerably by the war policies they advocated and carried out. This, too, is just.

I’m old enough to remember 1968. It was not only “the left” who were outraged over the war, and the terrible death toll among American soldiers in that time (never mind the bad time the Vietnamese were having along the way.) Many mainstream people who opposed the war were fooled by Nixon’s claim to have a “plan” to end it, and very likely would have voted for another Democratic nominee besides Humphrey who had the decency and sense to oppose the war—especially a popular and charismatic Democrat like Robert Kennedy.
By the same token, antiwar left people whom I knew mostly ended up voting reluctantly for Humphrey, because the alternative was Nixon. Even Ed Sanders of the Fugs, Yippie leader of sorts, says in a memoir that he went out and voted for Humphrey on election day. So it was the fault of “leftists” that Humphrey lost, because they had opposed the war, demonstrated against it, supported candidates besides incumbents and backroom choices? Absolutely not. That’s deceitful scapegoating and nothing else.

In fact, boys and girls, what really brought us the Nixon years was not the bad old narcissistic babyboomer Weather Underground Yippie left, but, in the first place, the disaffection of many reactionary, but previously Democratic, voters with LBJ and Humphrey BECAUSE of civil rights legislation—in combination with widespread, justified anger over LBJ’s insane, tragic and utterly unjust war. His pressure on Humphrey not to criticize his policies during the ‘68 campaign sure didn’t help either. In many people’s eyes, a vote for Humphrey was a vote for the hideous status quo in Vietnam.
Want to blame people like Hayden for this? The truth is, if people who shared Tom Hayden’s views had been listened to, the war either wouldn’t have taken place or would have been ended by that time. Further, if candidate Robert Kennedy had survived, I strongly believe he would have defeated Nixon in that election, either with the support of Hayden’s kind or not. In either instance, the useless war would have wasted far fewer lives than the 58,000 Americans and perhaps 3 million Vietnamese that resulted from LBJ/Nixon.

But the DLC-ilk “moderates” of today’s Democratic Party can only see “the left” today or in the past as troublemakers who undermine party unity—that is, “the left” and no one else. Oblomova’s ‘Dump the Hump’ comment is in keeping with the familiar shtick of belittling the privilege of liberal Democrats, like RFK, and anyone to their left, like Hayden, of opposing war policies in particular, or really, of participating in American politics at all by advocating their own views.

Everyone else in the political spectrum, from this view, has a right to vote, to demonstrate, to opine as they see fit—except “the left.” Instead, those folks are obliged to obediently vote as if they shared DLCer views, for the Clintons, Liebermans, and Gillebrands. Your “moderate” Dem candidate loses by 1 percent to a Republican, while a Green Party candidate got 1 percent or less, and 9 percent of registered Dems voted for the Republican? Well, of course, it’s still all the Green Party voters’ fault. Again, nothing but deceitful scapegoating.
“Moderates” can pitch all the sanctimony they like about “the hard slog” toward civil rights, but it’s plain that they themselves would NEVER have rocked the boat enough to bring about that hard-fought progress. In the current situation, it’s quite clear, judging from strategic leaks over the last several weeks, that President Obama’s terrible and fateful decision on Afghanistan came about because hawks in his administration had outmaneuvered him and others who doubted the wisdom of escalating, especially to the scale that the hawks wanted. We Democrats are NOT helpling Obama push through reasonable decisions on important issues when we refuse, out of a completely misguided sense of party loyalty (or something worse…) to criticize bad policies that come out of his administration.

pete, so are so full of it.  First of all most of us here are progressive and proud of it.  However we also view the world from a perspective that is reality based.

Second your “analysis” of the 1968 elections completely fails to take into account the fractionalization of the Democratic party that took place due to the role played by McCarthy (who I was supporting by the way - I remember the whole thing too).  I was a couple of years too young to vote that year but would have gritted my teeth and voted for Humphrey as someone who Was Not Nixon.  Just as I would have voted for anyone who Was Not Bush.

I am myself enormously unhappy over the Afghanistan decision.  One of the reasons I haven’t written anything about it yet.  But I can’t see McCain making a different decision.  In fact we’d have probably invaded Iran and Russia by now.

And to say nobody here ever criticizes Obama is total hogwash.  Try reading this blog sometime.

What’s clear to me is that you really don’t have any idea what most of us here think.  And as far as poking some fun at Tom Hayden - threatening to take somebody’s bumper sticker off of your car is a little juvenile.

We Democrats are NOT helpling Obama push through reasonable decisions on important issues when we refuse, out of a completely misguided sense of party loyalty (or something worse…) to criticize bad policies that come out of his administration.

Dude, if you think a blog called Rumproast should lead the charge on this, you may want to start with Rude Pundit or TBogg first.  They get a lot more traffic.

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